Last modified: 2003-07-18 by dov gutterman
Keywords: italy | padania | orobia | venice | lion |
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by Jaume Olle', 17 December 2000
This flag on top is neither the actual flag of "Liga Veneta" (= Northern
League Venetian section), nor the flag of the "Serenissimi"
("Serenisimi" in Venetian language), indipendentist
movement from Veneto, who became famous in 1997 for having
"conquered" for some hours the famous Bell-Tower of St.
Mark in Venice.
Northern League reused the flag with the sword as the "Flag of Orobia" (= Eastern Lombardy, Provinces of Bergamo and Brescia, which were once dominated by the "Serenisima") where people speak a "dialect" quite different from Western Lombardy (or "Insubria") and hardly understandable for other people: in Italian, when we hear a strange word or phrase, we may say "Che č, bergamasco?" (= What is this? Bergamo idiom?). You can see a small gif at <www.padaniacity.com>. I daresay that's the top flag modified with blue background!)
Paolo Montanelli, 20 March 2003
It is not the flag of Liga Veneta, but the flag of Eastern
Lombardy ("Orobia"): in a project by Lega Nord (even if
it's not the official political line of the party) the present
Lombardy should be divided in two parts: "Insubria" (Western Lombardy) and
"Orobia" (Eastern Lombardy).
Paolo Montanelli, 1 May 2003
The military pattern old Venetian Republic flag (with dark red
border) is used by the Serenisima Republic, and now adopted
by the Orobico autonomist but with the border changed to gold,
and its devices to blue, and the central rectangle changed from
dark red to blue according to <www.padaniacity.com>.
Jaume Olle', 2 May 2003
North League has a different flag for Eastern Lombardy (called
Austrasia). So there is two movements claiming a region of
Eastern Lombardy? (one Leghiste and other disident?). In my notes
Orobia and Austrasia are two different entities: Orobia is
Western Veneto, and Austrasia is Eastern Lombardy. Besides, it is
not the flag of Liga Veneta, but the flag of Eastern Lombardy
Jaume Olle', 13 May 2003
What's "Austrasia"? I know only a region called
Austrasia about 1,500 years ago and it was not in Northern Italy
but in present Central Germany (<www.wikipedia.org>).
Even if I never heard about it, I've found some websites
referring to Eastern Lombardy as "Austrasia". But they
are very few. Instead, a lot of pages refers to Bergamo/Bčrghem
as "capoluogo orobico", Eastern Lombardy as "terra
orobica" and so on. Has anyone a description of this flag of
"Austrasia"? Is it different from the "bandiera
orobica" I located on the web?
Paolo Montanelli, 1 July 2003
The term Orobia never existed, so it is only an invention by
North League; the "Orobi" were a pre-roman people that
lived in the region of Bergamo, and "Orobie" is the
name of the Alps between Bergamo, Lecco and Sondrio.
Fabio Facoetti, 1 July 2003
The Kingdom of Austrasia existed from 511 to 751 in the
north-east of Gaul. Its territory covered Rhineland (now in
Germany), Luxembourg, a part of Belgium and Lorraine (now in
France). Its capital city was Metz, now in Lorraine. I Austrasia
was a Merovingian kingdom, in struggle with Neustria, located
more westwards. Pepin de Herstal (635-714), from Austrasia,
defeated King of Neustrie Thierry III in 687 and unified
Austrasia and Neustrie. His son and successor was Charles Martel,
father of Pepin le Bref and grand-father of Charlemagne.
Charlemagne later invaded the so-called Padania when he
suppressed the Lombard kingdom, but I am not aware of any
Austrasia he might have created in northern Italy.
Ivan Sache, 1 July 2003
Surely Paolo is right refering with Eastern Lombardy as
Orobico (even if is also called Austrasia sometimes). There are
several autonomist sensibilities in North Italy. For some,
Bergamo was part of the Republic of Venice and is in West Veneto;
for others, Bergamo is yet in Lombardy. Who know what were the boundaries of the Celtic tribe that give name to the region? I dont know this and perhaps this is depending of the point of view. Italy has a lot of political parties, coalitions, minor movements, etc... and when is for autonomist groups the situation is complicate (very much complicate!). I asked Matte Colaone for a clasification of the autonomist movements: Leghiste, League allieds, autonomist out of League, regional italianist, etc... Dozens of flags were published in Flag Report, in several issues. He answered that the clasification will be issued in the next Flag Report, and it seems that this will shed some light on the panorama, but some specifics questions, like this one of Orobia, will remain pending.
Jaume Olle', 1 July 2003
In my opinion, the term "Orobia" never existed. I
live 10 kms far from Bergamo, in the land that 2.000 years ago
was inhabited by the "Orobi". This people was
established in the actual Lombard provinces of Bergamo, Lecco,
Como and Sondrio (in fact, the Alps of this region are called
"Alpi Orobie"). The origin of Orobi is uncertain (it is
not known if they were Celtic or Ligures), and we don't have many
documents of their existence, like buildings or objects, because
of their backwardness: their region were first occupied by the
Etruscan, and then conquered by the Romans, about in 200 B.C.,
becoming part of the "Gallia Cisalpina" (Cisalpine
Gaul). Roman occupation civilized these regions, with the
building of roads and towns. As already said, we people of
Bergamo don't have any cultural heritage of these tribes, because
many people crossed our territories in the past (Longobard,
Ostrogoth, German, Venetian...).
Austrasia is a historical region, completely unreleated to Bergamo and to Italy.
Fabio Facoetti, 2 July 2003
Austrasia was the name of the east lands of Frankish empire
(opposite to Neustria). I believe that Austrasia mean
"Eastern land" (from germanic ost, derived aust, like
Austria) or so, and this is Eastern Lombardy.
Jaume Olle', 3 July 2003
I'm a linguistics student and I only used the term
"Orobico" to describe the Eastern Lombardy dialect,
which is quite different form that spoken in the western part of
Lombardy. I found "Orobico" a much better term than
"Bergamasco" (and much more better than
"Austrasiano"... ), which is still the most frequent
term in dialectology, because that linguistic area also includes
Bresciano and Camuno. It's just a question of conventional names.
For example, referring to Northern Italy dialects I use
indifferently the words "dialetti gallo-italici" or
"dialetti padani" (which do not comprehend neither
Venetian nor, of course, Friulian and Ladin) without giving
political support to any political party or secessionist project.
I'm quite sure the word "Austrasia" has been never used
referring to Bergamo and Brescia, either in past times or in
recent times, either by sovereigns or by common people...
Paolo Montanelli, 4 July 2003
Austrasia mean the easter lands of any region. To relate
current Austrasia with the Frankish kingdom that was known under
this name is not the issue. Even if the genesis of the name is
the same there is no relation neither simbolic or reivindicative.
Jaume Olle', 4 July 2003
Austrasia is the name of a kingdom whose existence is
documented from 511 to 751. At the same time, there was a kingdom
of Lombardia, whose eastern part has nothing to do with
Austrasia. Wether Austrasia refers to the east or not is
absolutely irrelevant in this case. Austrasia cannot be eastern
Ivan Sache, 4 July 2003